A bit of a sad question really, but does anyone know where Robbie Wiliams gets his tattoos done.
No reason other than i would like to see the artists website...I must get out more lol,,, Thanks
Ribbies Moko (large tribal type arm) was done in Holland by Te Rangitu Netana (i think) who is a travelling Maori Moko artist.
I actually had a upper arm Moko piece by his cousin Tuane in Derby yesterday - what an experience and the guys a Tradition 180 are a really cool bunch.
I also have a full arm piece by Tuane & I have to say on what I have seen I think Tuane's work is better than Te Rangitu Netana.
Sara there is a lot on here about Maori tattoos & I suggest if you r thinking of obtaining such a piece you read it all rather than go off & copy someting you have seen on a pop star.
All who have followed the threads should be aware of the difference between moko which the Maori's see as a sacred treasure and kirithui which is Maori influenced tattoos for non Maori.
Do your research & go to someone like Tuane who will design you a piece using the traditional skills but based on YOUR experiences & not those of others.
If however u just want a Maori "tribal" go and pick a piece of flash of any artists wall but please do not have the cheek to refer to it as Moko or Kirithui
To be honest I was only asking to have a look at where he had them done, im not actually wanting a piece done, im just being nosey, lol.
I wanted to have a look at all his tattoos he has done, its hard to find pictures of all his tattoos in one go.,and also see what studio he uses,,, no reason other than im curious for looking...
canada and hawaii!!!!! i thought he was heading back to holland!! i was hoping to get more done on my shoulder to elbow piece he did for me 3 weeks ago........think i'll phone the shop....
cool, i got the same area covered - i was with him for 10 hours, 6 of those were actual inking time.
i know what you mean about the pain, everyone tends to play it down but i found it really quite painful, only just bearable at times in fact! by the end of the 6 hours i was absolutely exhausted....
i put it down to it being nearly all line work which is supposed to be a bit more painful...
you're right though - lovely guy and truly gives it his all.
do you have any more to add to it or is it completed?
It's completed mate - and exhausted is a really good word for us all when he had finished.
Agree totally about the pain though - not a moaner usually, but bugger me it hurt. I put it down to going back and lining in detail over sore areas after 31/2 hours - when they were all red and angry already.
Me too I had the first piece of my armdone at the Skintech convention in Manchester so I thought the sarong& the carved manta necklace was for the publics benefit so I was a bit surprised on the next two sesions which were in private that he stil insistd I ware them.
I guess he just wants to stay close to his ancestoral traditions & you can't knock him for that it certainly adds something to the experience as does the "naming ceremony" at the end
As for the fish he had to show me where it was because I could not find it
Hey Bernard,
Did you see the piece I got done on my left leg??? Let me know what you think of it!!! Check my blog
http://marlosenglishlife.blogspot.com
tenakoe
can someone tell me how to get in contact with Tuane in Holland - which studio is he at. I met with Te Rangitu back in May 2002 to get a moko done (full back & shoulders) but had to travel so missed him in the UK when i arrived back. Hopefully I can get in touch with Tuane to follow up where I left off with Te Rangitu and get this moko done.
hi Robbie
how are you? i'm not good in speaking so forgive me in this point any way i have you all albums i love your songs very much i want to you send you left shoulder tattoo design thanks bye
Kiaora,
My name is Te Rangitu Netana. I am back in New Zealand, and we have a tattoo shop called Mana Moko at 227a Symonds St, Auckland. Contact us on www.manamoko.co.nz. Phone is 0064 9 369 5719 or my mobile is 0064 21 292 4402.
I have been reading a few of the messages on this forum - and find it disappointing that Bernard finds it necessary to compare myself and Tuane's work. Ta Moko or its artists are not to be compared. I take it personally that a complete stranger has an opinion on me or my culture, and challenge Bernard to back up his comments and get in touch to meet me face to face on this subject.
Although I am related to Tuane, we are not the same, and our style, methods and ethics are totally different. Unfortunately, a person could tell you anything about our culture in Europe, and you would believe it, as you don't know anything about it. Not all of these people know what they're talking about, even if they're from New Zealand. There is no such thing as a naming ceremony in Ta Moko by the way. Its easy to make up stories when you're not surrounded by your people. Unfortunately one of the reasons why I left Europe was because of attitudes like Bernards.
I have a saying for you guys:
Don't believe the hype, or one day you might believe the lie.
if you're going to get kirituhi, do your research before you make any decisions, don't just take the easy route. The journey to this knowledge is part of the story. Knowledge is everything in Maoridom, and knowledge of maori culture isn't easy to find most times in Europe. The other reason why i left was so I could be closer to my people and culture, and if Moko is truly a thing you seek, it means coming to New Zealand to gain any kind of true understanding.
If anybody else has anything to comment personally about me, better to talk to me about it than anybody else. Get in touch on youngweta@yahoo.co.nz.
Te Rangitu
Got a question about you’re reply. The way you’re stating that you and Tuane are not the same and have totally different methods and ethics. You continue this statement by you that people could tell you everything here in Europe and that they make things up, even if the are from New Zealand, etc.
Those this mean that you think this way about Tuane and his work?
No mean to disrespect you or any of you’re relatives with this question. Perhaps I’m completely wrong, but you’re message could be read this way.
All I’ve heard and read about Tuane so for is/was very positive and I was thinking about trying to make an appointment with him myself while he’s working over here in The Netherlands. So far I thought he was okay and worked in traditional matter, but the second time I read you’re message it put me in doubt about how it should be interpreted.
When I wrote the message I was a little p'd off with that stupid man that compared mine & Tuane's work, when he doesn't know me or my work! I see how my message could have been read wrong. I do respect Tuane as a tattooist, & visa versa, but we have different ways of presenting our work and culture. I was trying to express that people in Europe are looking for something in Ta Moko that is not in their culture, and its like the blind leading the blind. Just to be aware that everyone has a different way of expressing their artform. Don't get it confused with a custom. I hope you don't take this answer wrong!
I think it may be a headache trying to talk to you guys. Please don't talk about me in a negative way again. Like I said, pls contact me on my email if you want to talk to me.
Firstly let me say if you do not want people to pass comment on your work then I suggest you do not allow it to be displayed in public places Not sure how that will work though given what you do.
Secondly thankfully we still live in a democracy & we are entitled to voice an opinion, my opinion was of the finished work and certainly not of you or your beliefs or culture. I would not dream of passing judgement on something I know so little about. Incidently the little I do know I have great respect for
The purpose of this forum is to share & discuss opinions, ideas & experiences we do not require any form of censorship from a casual visitor.
Your reaction is both over sensative and ill informed the criticisms you level at me are more appropriate to your own behaviour. You say one of the reasons you left Europe "was because of attitudes like Bernards".
So as you know me so well what are my attitudes?
Your following paragraph only serves to demonstrate the fact you know absolutely nothing about me. Those that have been following my posts on here know that I spent months researching the subject and deliberately avoided a trip to the local tattooist armed with pictures of someone elses moko. I have never referred to my kirithui as moko except to explain that Tuane insisted on calling it moko.
I understand moko is a sacred treasure although not an expert I understand that to a Maori his/her moko is very personal and has strong references / connections to their heritage/ancestry It was out of respect for this that I sought out a maori artist who could create something personal to me.
This is something I have wanted for over thirty years it was my first and still is my only tattoo I wanted to have lived a life so that I had a story to tell.
I have never posted pictures of my kirithui because it is personal to me it represents the relationships & experiences I share with my familly, the most precious thing to me. Of course Tuane could have been feeding me a pile of BS but this is certainly not the impression I got nor incidently is the the impression other Europeans posting on here seem to have of him. I have yet to see anything bad written about him.
I welcomed Tuane into my home earlier this year & I would be more than willing to welcome him back again when he is next in the UK despite your inference that he is not what he makes out to be.
You challenge me to back up my comments I offer you the same challenge.
According to you I have opinions about you and your culture please show for all to see where I express these opinions
Again as you know me so well please explain to all what attitudes I have that are so loathsome that they drove you from Europe
In your second post you refer to me as a "stupid man" interesting to see that in just over 24 hours you have formed another opinion of me although we have shared no communication whatsoever. Once again your opinion is ill informed & I have the opinion of two universities a degree & MA to prove it.
Te Rangitu we to have a saying up here in the north of England "ark at kettle calling pot sooty arse!"
It is clear for all to see that it is you who sits in judgement of the whole European race. It is you who forms personal opinions about people you have never met and it is you alone that has used this forum to speak negatively & offensively of another person.
In all you vitriolic diatribe you did make one sound point
"knowledge of maori culture isn't easy to find most times in Europe. ............ and if Moko is truly a thing you seek, it means coming to New Zealand to gain any kind of true understanding".
Could not agree more and it is for this reason that I will one day visit your beautiful country and seek out those among you proud race that are willing to spend time explaing your culture to those who have a genuine desire to learn.
My entire journey to gaining my kirithui has been driven by the desire not to cause offense to broaden my knowledge and find a meaningful, spiritual and lasting way of honouring my familly, your bitternes will not lessen or spoil my experience.
You are free to respond using this forum or personaly using the email link
I feel I need to explain the situation at home in New Zealand, for you all to understand the whole picture. My comments could have been taken as defensive; in a way they were. Maori Ta Moko artists aren't just tattooists; its political with us, because we're dealing within our culture. Tempers are pretty high here in new zealand within Maori. our government once again are making Maori out to be the enemy. Alot of New Zealanders aren't taking a stand; they'd rather let the government do their thinking for them. Wealthy businessmen from all over the world are backing up the government's money-driven ideas.
More and more people are coming to New Zealand and buying our land, and pretty soon there'll be nothing left for us. The government are seeing dollar signs everywhere, nothing is sacred anymore. They are currently passing a law - the foreshore deal, which takes any Maori traditional title of the coastal land, and gives it to the crown, in the name of New Zealanders, which gives them the right to choose how this land can be exploited in the name of the crown. This includes most of my family land. I have a lot of love and respect for my friends in Europe, but my people need the essence of our work more at this time.
Every time you turn on the radio here, there is someone that has nothing to do with Maoridom dicating what Maoridom is all about to New Zealanders. When you turn on the TV, Maoris asserting their traditional rights on their land are made out to be troublemakers. It is very one-sided, because the government own the newspapers and the media. Just like everywhere I guess, round the world. If any maori are out there, please get registered and vote for the maori party., I know this forum is about tattooing, but with us, it is all linked. Maori were originally lead to believe by settlers that if we wore Ta Moko, it was the devils work. Not only Moko, but our culture. This has taken its toll. We've been fighting so long for our culture, and now people are starting to take notice. Its really important for Maori to be understood, and to be empowered by every part of our culture. I realise that people in Europe want to wear moko for many different reasons - I guess if you can influence one out of a hundred people for whatever reason, it is a positive step. After working in Europe for nearly 5 years, I hope that everyone I have tattooed will have a little more understanding of Maori for my children and their children.
He kapiti hono, he tatai hono.
(that which is joined together becomes an unbroken line).
Te Rangitu Netana
To Bernard,
I have been told off! I responded to your comment on the way it made me feel. It was an honest reaction and I make no apology for that. I am a hot-headed maori. You'll find alot of us when you come here. I don't think it needed this whole essay, but i've enjoyed the argument!
I hope when you come to NZ you'll find everything you seek and probably more. You're not a stupid man, I see you are a very educated man. I didn't seek to ruin your experience of moko, so I'm glad I haven't. There are many disappointments in this world as i'm sure you know. I haven't advertised any of my work; that i have no control over, so I guess you are entitled to your opinion, although feel that you may not have seen enough to form this opinion, and vice versa. For my part in that I gladly retreat. I am but a red blooded Ngapuhi. If you're ever in NZ, us Ngapuhi's love a good argument, and then maybe a feast!
I have been fortunate enough to see Bernard's ink (it's beautiful!) and I know how passionate he is about it.
Things can become a bit heated on message forums, but people all over the globe have different opinions.If we all agreed all of the time I guess it would be pretty boring.
Right, now that the air is cleared (I hope) let's get on with things.
I am glad we have cleared up this misunderstanding I did say in the post that provoked your reaction my opinion was based on what I had seen. I admit that I have seen more of Tuane work than yours, like you Tuane does not overtly advertise his work & what I have seen has been the work he has shown me himself. That couppled with the fantastic experience I had on the three ocassions I met Tuane maybe makes me a little biased.
I meant no malice and commented only on the "art" although I apreciate moko is more than an art form. I can fully apreciate why you would be so protective of your work & culture.
I myself am a very proud Yorkshire man & would defend my heritage with the same passion with which you defend yours. Too many people are happy to sit back and let politicians & developers destroy our past in the name of progress.
We must stand firm against this or there will be nothing of our herritage for our children to inherit I salute you in your struggle to maintain your identity in a world so fixated with the future that it has forgotten it's beginings.
We Yorkshire men are a stubborn lot and also like a good argument. Having had the argument we must not forget the feast maybe when I visit NZ I will look you up
TOI HE KUPU I TE ARA HAPARA (actions speak louder than words!)
We all have our own interpretation of life, we all live in our own world but we share the same planet. 6 billion people, 6 billion worlds, 6 billion atmospheres.
I have witnessed both hot and cold actions, not only (reading) in this forum, but also during my journey as a Ta Moko artist.
If your were ask me these questions 1 hour before I died I would be confident of the answers I gave within the realm of Ta Moko. However life is my teacher, therefore knowledge shared is knowledge gained.
When we point the finger at other people there are 3 pointing back - past, present and future!
Firstly, to my cousin Te Rangitu Netana - Kia ora bro!
Secondly, Bernard, Kia Kaha e hoa. Be strong!
The typed word fails to carry the true emotions one experiences receiving Ta Moko. It's not what you say but the way in which it's expressed that carries the true experience an individual encounters.
In the realm of the universities etc...I am not a learned man, I failed to see eye to eye with the structure of the worlds that were moving around me.
How ever may I refere to the opening proverb, written in english or maori it carries the exact same message, actions do speak louder than words, the misunderstanding comes from how we through our own personal worldly experiences interpret what we see, feel, taste etc...
Knowledge shared is knowledge gained.
My e-mail is ...tatlantis@hotmail.com
If you live in the Netherlands, then please dont hesitate to contact me in Dutch or english.
I will try to do my best to answer any questions, but dont expect that the answer I give is Gospel, it is my interpretation.
I am grateful to share a portion of my world with those who feel the same conection with their world.
I know that Im not the fist Maori to Moko non-maori & I know that I will not be the last.
I have learnt that it is easier to label, manipulate & backstab people via the internet, however if anyone would like to talk to me PERSON TO PERSON, then please contact me at the above e-mail. I am still in europe.
To those that I have already met during my travels around this planet, Kia Ora! & thankyou for your support. oh yeah by the way just because you dont know it, doesnt mean that its not true.
For many years the greatest minds said that this world was flat, maybe their own personal world of vision was flat, & history has told us that this planet is not flat.
Everyday I am constantly learning, for life is my teacher.
until our ships of battle meet in the harbour of healing..Kia Tau te Rangimarie, Peace Be with YOU ,Always...tangaroatuane
I believe you are simply giving to people exactly what they want,those that are seeking some spiritual meaning you are providing that expierence for them,and good on you!
I see youre still causing trouble without even trying, and amongst strangers no less! Lucky you, bad publicity is better than no publicity ay Porky? oh sorry Dwayne (Tuane) or is it Elder Woods? Good luck to you mate my guess is you'll probably need it when truth finally catches up with you and bites you on the ass!
Tena koutou,
i have recently been researching my whakapapa which is most closely analagous with the concept of genealogy. however reference to genetic history is the last similarity that can be easily explained in any forum. i too have had the unique benefit (as tangata whenua) of accessing education in my country and even as a qualified solicitor i have difficulty in translating the concerns of tangata whenua when applying colonial legislative developments and anachronisms. the shift from a subsistence based communism to a greed orientated capitalist society brings me to the point i wish to establish. "the plastic tiki debate" has raged for years and has its origins in whakapapa and mana motu hake (identity). tangata whenua possess value structures that will always frustrate attempts at reconcilliation and currently the Leggo company is involved in litigation viz. its bionicle range for this very reason . one cant help but assume Mr. Williams and the like have contributed to the increasing popularity of kaupapa o nga tangata whenua o Aotearoa and its unilateral dissemination. i mentioned previously the difficulty in adequately explaining the concept of mana and whakapapa and over several years instructing on the social constuction of our beautiful country the best attempt to explain the concept is as follows: tangata whenua derive identity from mana. mana is the value and esteem in which the person is to be held. the ta moko is representative of the persons whakapapa. when that person is born he possesses a hypothetical cup that contains the mana achieved through his/her whakapapa by his tupuna (ancestors). it is for him/her to add to that cup throughout his life. if that person acts in a way inconsistent with the mana he possesses his cup will decease in content and vice versa. what is important here is that any change in this persons mana affects everyone who shares the same line. (in other words) my actions today can increase the mana of my tupuna Rahiri (Or decrease) and everyone who shares the same link to Rahiri is likewise affected. this is integral to the identity of tangata whenua and often causes heated and intense discussion on what would in all intents and purposes be trading our identity or selling out. the countervailing issue is of course the ability to share an incomparably beautiiful artform that can enrich every society ot touches, but please when considering the option of ta moko understand the implications and pay respect to those tangata whenua who have died and killed in warfare to achieve the markings available to you for the price of a 14" colour television.
fair enough! but in our culture its just a tattoo that we like the look of!You don`t see us celts going round tellin` people off for wearin our history round their arms!
Ok, so you see it as just another tattoo that u like the look of...sweet..but in reference to u not telling people off for wearing ur cultures tattoos!!! what exactly are your cultural tattoos? & do you have a culture? we maori people are very sensitive when it comes to any non maori wearing our artform...its about respecting the culture & wearing the artform proudly...if their are any maori people out there that wear YOUR cultural tattoos, it is most likely that they have a parent or grandparent that is of that culture...at the end of the day..if you dont like or cant carry ur moko with pride & respect, DONT get one!!!!
celts do have cultural tattoos ! in a historical sense the northern scottish people where known as the pictured men or "Picts" .they had any number of different styles of tattoo and looked quite strange to others of the same period.My point is the Knotwork style was massively popular not lomg back and most celts found it flattering that so many other people wanted to wear something that was traditionally their style,on the other hand alot of celts could`nt care less.
Its good to be proud of your history and heritage,no aurgument there,but to start now getting all anal about something that didn`t bother you a few years ago seems a bit redundant to me!
Also please bear in mind that to get into a debate about the legitimacy of one style of so called tribal tattoo versus another is both pointless and probably detrimental to all forms of tattooing.your beautiful and vibrant art work deserves a wider view.
Firstly i would like to establish that in no way do i denegrate from the proud scottish culture enjoyed by my friend nor would i presume a right to comment on something so important to anothers identity. i take your point in regard to the celtic tattoo trend of the 90's and i would apologise for any part i may have had in encouraging the practice if it offended the scottish people. however as i mentioned earlier the commercialism of tikanga maori is not a new thing, it has plagued our people since the first settlers began trading in the shrunken heads of our ancestors two hundred years ago. like most indigenous races prior to colonisation tangata whenua did not possess a written language placing large emphasis on the symbolism represented in ta moko. Returning to your scottish heritage i would ask that you recognise that you have full control over your culture, its ownership and membership. while tangata whenua struggle to reestablish our cultural identity from beneath the dominant colonial british culture that has smothered and erradicated diversity in our country. it is ironic that our british forefathers in this fashion didn't mind sharing their culture either, albeit forcefully imposed. as you have mentioned it would be redundant to debate this issue in this forum as the imposition of western culture and eurocentrisms are lost on eurocentric westerners. again i reiterate if you have or would like to wear our designs, respect their origins, every curve and shape tells a story or denotes a great ancestor, every stroke and notch a different battle or achievement. i cant stop people selling out and to appeal to the intergrity (mana) of these people would be like waving at a blind man, however i have no cause to question the integrity of tauiwi (non-tangata whenua) and ask only that the appropriate respect is shown our taonga (treasure). FYI my wife is Scottish and therefore my chldren too share that heritage, i would not trade on my childs identity and will protect their right to that identity. i will never wear a kilt for i am not scottish, i wear a piu piu for i am tangata whenua but my kids can wear both.
im sorry but i cant see how wearing the same pattern as someone who has fought in a war to earn the right to wear that pattern is disrespecting that person when obviously they are worn for different reasons . maybe they should be content in themselves to know what they have achieved . if i was to get just the tattoo what is being talked about how is that demeaning the deeds of the real maori ?? he still earned his surely , or is it to do with showing it off to others ? if you look at it from a religious point of view , the meanings are for those that believe in that system and the pictures are for those that dont otherwise we would have to say no more cross tattoos for the non-christain and no more ohm signs etc for the non eastern relgions .
i understand that it must be hard to accept that someone can walk into a tattoo studio and come out with an identical design that has much more meaning to others but i cant see how it could make the slightest difference to the meaning behind an outward expression of an inner belief they are totally different things in my opinion
Just to say that I found your debate interesting. I am currently writing a dissertation on how capitalism and the mass media have adopted the tattoo and turned it into a banal consumer item. Do you guys have any comments on this? If so, are you tattooists yourselves? I am trying to get as many comments as possible from tattoo artists on this - or tattooees for that matter!
Cheers
Hello with all! I present myself I am called Florian I am French 17 years old, I have just fallen by chance on your forum because I am making research in connection with Maori tattooing of the style of robbie Williams because I have been very interested by this style of tattooing, unfortunately I seek for 6 months in France and on Internet of the fotos, Maoris images but I find very little of it and which are not with my taste! I learned that the tattooing of Robbie Williams was carried out by Te Rangitu Netana, unfortunately I do not have the possibility of moving me as far as New Zealand and I wanted to simply to ask you whether he will be possible Mr. You Rangitu Netana if you could advise me where I will be able to get information in connection with Maori tattooings or if you could draw me a model of the same style as robbie Williams?! (Sorry for my poor English lol) I thank you in advance!
Well I have been very interested in all of the postings that I have been reading and must say I experienced a range of different emotions from anger to amusement when reading through them.
To 'Tareha', 'Moko wearers', 'Te Rangitu' and 'Unity' - Kia ora, kai pai to korero!
I myself have a Tamoko given to me by my brother. I am very proud to have been given the privilege to wear a Tamoko that symbolises the identity and mana of my Tupuna, both Maori and Scottish/English.
In response to questions that have been raised and some that should be explained, I would like to give some general understanding into what Tamoko is and what Kirituhi is, as well as explaining in some form what meaning Tamoko patterns and designs have to Maori.
Tamoko is the visual personal adornment of the skin of a Maori body, for men the face, buttocks and thighs and for women the chin and pelvic area are general points of decoration. Each part of the body is symbolic and holds it's own level of tapu. Receiving a Tamoko is dependant on the status of the Maori, and status dictates the level and type of adornment that is permitted, i.e. Warrior in relation to a slave. Status was either ascribed (given by birth) but in some cases achieved through acts of prowess in warfare, leadership qualities and mana.
The patterns and designs were individual and sacred to each Maori whanau, hapu and iwi. The combination of patterns and designs have ownership rights to those groups and cannot/should not be replicated. They identify your origins, whanau, status, lineage, mana, acts and whenua (land rights). The act of receiving a Tamoko is treated with the highest tapu, involving tohunga tamoko, rites and ceremony and the permissions and blessings of your tupuna. The act of piercing the skin and drawing blood is tapu. There is no naming ceremony.
Kirituhi holds in itself a special meaning to the wearer but is not Tamoko and should not be represented as such. The meaning is defined as 'tourist tattoo', it is an artform and is treated as such by Maori with an understanding of tikanga (Maori knowledge and traditional customs). Kirituhi is generally given to non-Maori and those Maori not willing to go through applying themselves to the responsibilities of receiving a Tamoko.
As I read through the postings I was saddened by the misunderstanding and ill-respect. However, ignorance is the only defence and knowledge is the key.
To those fans of Tangaroa Taune (Dwayne Woods by birth), I am glad you are happy with his work but please do not be fooled into thinking it is Tamoko. It is and always will be Kirituhi. This acknowledgment does not in any way divert from how special each piece is or from Dwayne as an artist.
I would ask that readers do not get defensive by my posting as it is not meant to be taken personally or as an attack on Dwayne. You have met him and spent time with him but we know him and grew up with him and as his peers and fellow Maori have the ascribed right to critic. Readers and wearers have the rights too, but remember it is not your ascribed right to wear Maori adornment, it is given as a gift and should be respected as such.
hello people how are you?
i'm 18 years old male looking robbie williams left shoulders tattoo i loved that design and want to make it but here couldn't find it and how much i searched in the internet i couldn't find the exact design they only photos, but i want 3D pic of it so if any body can send me it i will be glad for him or her pleas send me your answers to my email address "varant_k@hotmail.com" thanks i will waite for the answer
seee ya bye bye
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