Return to Website

Citroen Specials Club

This Forum page is provided for members of the Citroen Specials Club to ask for, or respond to offers of, advice or assistance and to offer hints and tips with building and maintaining a Citroen Special (kit or one off special) or similar vehicle. Would members please include their membership number and/or e-mail address so they can be identified. Guests are welcome to place messages but must give a valid e-mail address. Feel free to disguise the address by, for instance, replacing "@" with "*", to avoid spam robots copying it.

Anonymous messages and messages not in keeping with the aims of the forum will be removed.

Note: If there is a closed padlock on the message then no more replies can be added.

If there is the word 'Sticky' then it means the message is important.

 

The Search facility is now active.

Citroen Specials Club
This Forum is Locked
1 2 3 4
Author
Comment
223 Rebuild

Hi all
This link

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1

will take you to my photobucket album where you can view pics of my 223 rebuild if you are interested,What I would like is, as things progress if any of you experts see something obviously wrong that you tell me, I will not be offended.
As you can see I bought it all in bits and am working blind so to speak. I will post more pics as it progresses.
Bye for now
Andy Stafford

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hello Andy

Well I certainly enjoyed browsing through your Photobucket album and there are lots of questions to ask and points to make from me -

1. Perhaps you've explained your plans for the 223 elsewhere but I havn't read them so didn't really understand what you are planning to do.

2. The images are not always in chronological order so I can't work out whether you are going for doors or filling them in.

3. What's happening to the steering rod ends?

4. The restored discs are now drilled. Did you do that yourself? If so how?

5. You show the ends of the front swinging arms cut off to alter the caster angle so how did you judge when the angle was right, and what actually is 'right'?

6. The lengthened rear swinging arm looks a bit angular. Did you do that yourself? Did you also do the strengthening ribs yourself?

7. What is the odd bracket on this arm?

8. The cut off end of the 'dummy' swinging arm has four threaded holes in it. What's that for?

9. The galvanised chassis looks a heck of a lot lighter than my 'Wheels' one, reputed to be the heaviest in the business. What make is it?

10. The rear end of the body tub is unusual.

11. Why are you extending the tub by 18"?

12. What is the square hole in the floor for? A trap door?

13 The preparation of the swinging arms is great, almost a shame to paint them; and the walnut veneered dashboard is great.

14. What's 'epoxymastic'?

15. What front anti-roll bar have you fitted?

There it goes to show I have read your thread, and I look forward to following the build.

Membership No. 1906

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Paul

1 My plans are to rebuild the 223 with a few modifications

2 When i uploaded to photobucket it jumbled them all up,If you click on the RECENT ALBUM they are in a better order, And yes I am fitting doors

3 I have fitted rose joints and they connect with a tube

4 I drilled them in a pillar drill

5 I posted on here a while back asking that question and Callum reckoned you rotated them forwards about 5mm, so I did

6 Thats just the shape of it and I just welded on some steel

7 I do not know, I was hoping somebody could tell me

8 mmmm When I cut off the arm and plated the end I welded 4 x m12 nuts on the inside, Figured I might be able to connect the 2 rear arms together somehow, After recieving JOHNS solution I decided thats the way to go and a mate has just made it for me

9 I have no idea it came with the original

10 Its for the spare wheel

11 So I could make a boot and I think the car will look more in proportion

12 I do not know, I was hoping somebody could tell me

13 Thank you

14 It is true epoxy paint, 50/50 mix and sets like iron

15 It came with the box of bits

Anything else you need to know just let me know but I think you know a lot more about 2cv,s than I do, I have never owned 1 or particularly even looked at 1. Its alright buying a box of bits but when the Haynes manual says remove this peice < and no picture> I then have to find that peice to fit it, Still cannot complain im having fun. Unlike yours mine is already registered correctly and I only need an mot not the other load of ********* 1
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy & Paul,
may be able to help with a few of these;

7. The odd bracket was the mounting point for an inertia damper, aka a 'batteur'.

9. Chassis is one of mine, yet another one which has been 'resting' for some time, at least 8 years I'd guess.

15. Anti-roll bar is from an Ami8.

The preparation 'ain't half good Mum', only reservation I'd express might be how much of the original weld has been removed on the seams of the suspension arms.
Mind you, a Lomax is considerably lighter than a regular A series, so the stresses will be lower and I doubt that you plan to go off-roading when she's all done and out to play. ;o)

Ken

p.s. Been looking back through the photographs again,
so a couple of notes.
Clips aren't used on the outer end of the middle gaiters on the driveshafts, as 'spent' grease is supposed to work its way out.

Only vegetable based oil in the suspension canisters, certainly not mineral oil or brake fluid.
Castor oil if you're feeling flush, otherwise sunflower oil will do.

Plastic dust sleeves on the dampers going on later?

All for now, time for a beer next door...

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Ken
Thanks for all the info, The guy i bought it all from had had it all for 10 years, He bought it as a running vehicle and then dismantled it and never rebuilt it, He reckoned the chassis was 9 years old.
Pls give me a clue on dust sleeves and where to get them from
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Andy,
those rear dampers look like Allinquant/Lipmesa type.

If that's correct, I've probably got some lying around here with sleeves which are still AOK.

Just as long as you're not in a hurry, far too many chassis to build, as well as MOT work on these 2CV things at the moment...

Ken



Andy Stafford
Hi Ken
Thanks for all the info, The guy i bought it all from had had it all for 10 years, He bought it as a running vehicle and then dismantled it and never rebuilt it, He reckoned the chassis was 9 years old.
Pls give me a clue on dust sleeves and where to get them from
Andy

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Cheers Ken
I only live at doncaster so I will give you a bell and pop over sometime
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy

My late grandparents used to live at 30 Warren Close, Intake. Funny how some details stick in one's mind for over fifty years yet I can't remember someone's name I met only yesterday.

I see you have two sets of alloy rocker covers......

Have you thought about creating a small trap door in the floor of the boot to allow access to the top of the fuel tank? Once the body tub is all bolted up to the chassis, the tank will be trapped, and should anything go wrong with the sender or it's earth, then...

I say this as on the 2CV I've had to drop the tank three times in the last few weeks with fuel leaking from various places.

Membership No. 1906

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Paul,
I know where warren close is, Like u say its a small world, Im afraid I only have 1 pr of alloy rocker covers, The 2 pr on photobucket are the before & after pics.
I have decided the hole in the floor is for turbo boost AKA foot power.
I will have a new fuel tank made and have not decided where to fit it yet.
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken,

Regarding lubrication of spring boxes.

I know that Citroen say not to use mineral oil inside the cylinders, but is that still valid for the latest "piston rings" made from plastic?

I have used heavy EP150 oil in both cars and as far as I know, there has been no problem and the ride is certainly beautifully smooth.

If anyone needs to contact me over the next few weeks, I will be sure to get the message if it is sent to plaisterj@btinternet.com with a copy to plaisterj@orange .net

John

Membership No. 301

Re: 223 Rebuild

John,
the original 'sliders' on the spring cups were asbestos based, afaik, so they were never at any risk from the use of an incorrect fluid to provide lubrication

However, those rubber limit stops which bear against the end of the suspension canisters are most certainly vulnerable to such an attack...

It's quite common to find those rubber stops reduced to a jelly-like mess if mineral oil has been used, with the front pair usually being the victims.

No, you don't need to tip the car on its end for the fluid to make its way out of the canister and onto the stops, as the movement of the springs is usually enough to splash lubricant around inside the canister, from where it leaks forwards along the end fitting.

Ken.

( I did once have an 'interesting' discussion with a character who insisted that the spring cups were intended to provide an airtight seal, thus creating a partial vacuum inside the canisters.
Somehow, he had failed to notice that the springs bearing on the inner ends of the canisters did a much better job of interlinking the front and rear suspension ;o) )



John Plaister
Ken,

Regarding lubrication of spring boxes.

I know that Citroen say not to use mineral oil inside the cylinders, but is that still valid for the latest "piston rings" made from plastic?

I have used heavy EP150 oil in both cars and as far as I know, there has been no problem and the ride is certainly beautifully smooth.

If anyone needs to contact me over the next few weeks, I will be sure to get the message if it is sent to plaisterj@btinternet.com with a copy to plaisterj@orange .net

John

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken,

Yes, how right you are.

Perhaps, having used such thick oil, it does not splash, just coats the inside of the spring canisters.

If not, I shall be replacing the donuts.

Thanks,

John

Membership No. 301

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
I wish I had taken a few photos of my build, maybe with the next one!! a splendid record of your achievements, I shall enjoy returning to view progress.
My next project due to start in the evry near future is a Bond Bug..I have most of the bits andintend to install the body on a Reliant Chassis, this need the body stretching by some 10 inches. What preparation did you apply to the cut edges of the Lomax shell and what method of build up did you use.
I was proposing to roughen up with a wire disc on the angle grinder to open the old fibre and then to apply resin direct to the shell and infill with sheet and more resin etc to achieve the desired fill. Then as you indicate plenty of rubbing back and more fill etc.
Etching primer and then paint to desired colour.
I will need to keep the camera ready this time
keep up the good work
regards Bill D

Membership No. 1832

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Bill
I basically cut it in 1/2 with a jigsaw, Extended the floor, Repositioned the cut off end, Then laid up
gelcoat and fibreglass on a sheet of glass 2 layers thick so it was flexible.
Using an angle grinder roughed up and cleaned the original bodywork about 6" either side of the cut, Fitted the new fibreglass sheet in and then glassed it up on the inside. When that looked ok I did the same on the outside.
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
Thanks for your info it appears that I am proposing to follow a similar route with the Bug
regards Bill D

Membership No. 1832

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
The arrangement of the front anti-roll bar is puzzling me. When you put weight on the front arms, the bar will rotate backwards and foul the gear box mount. I had to reverse the bar on mine (so that the stepped section pointed forwards) and extend the geabox mount out for 6mm (using a spacer, and removing 6mm front the spacing tubes)

I couldn't work out any other way of making it fit. How have you oversome this?

Rgrds
Callum

Re: 223 Rebuild

Callum
I have not overcome that problem, I tried it the other way round and it fouled other things,It never occured to me to space the gearbox mount forward but I will have another look.
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy & Callum,
looking at Andy's photographs, Citroen fitted the anti-roll bar _in front of_ the mounting bolts on the end plates.

The offset part of the bar goes towards the rear of the vehicle and the bar is positioned by bringing into contact with a 6mm diameter gauge pin resting on top of the suspension arm.
( For 'gauge pin', read 'allen key'. )

Any good? ;o)

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi chaps, I too have the problem of the anti-role bar fouling the gearbox mount ( its fitted with the shaped part facing the rear and 6mm gap between the bar and the the suspension arms the engine/gbox is not fitted yet, maybe a spacer between the mount and bracket will do it? on my other lomax (dyane chassis)the r/bar and mount clearance looks ok.

Membership No. 1807

Re: 223 Rebuild

A picture's often worth a thousand words...

<
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30132857@N06/5152673164/
>

Ken.

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
Thanks for the pic, I will Try it that way round as well and see what happens
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

After speaking to and seeing two members front anti roll bars, I intend to copy them and fit a Bedford Rascal/Suzuki SuperCarry anti roll bar and rubber mounting brackets. The forward ends of the 'U' will be attached to the front swinging arms using Astra MkIII joints and special brackets welded on to the inner faces of the swinging arms. They claim it greatly improves the cars. I bought the Astra MkIII joints on eBay for about £3.50 each. I must have a picture somewhere

Membership No. 1906

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken / Callum & Mel
After much faffing about this is how I have now fitted the Anti roll bar.
I have turned it round so it is the same way as Callums, Fitting it the correct way like your pic shows Ken meant moving the gearbox forward a long way.
I had to chamfer the top of the suspension end plates where the rollbar fits, Space off the gearbox mount 6/7mm, Grind 4mm off the underneath of the gearbox mount.
It now fits without fouling anything BUT is spaced off the suspension arm 8mm as it will physically not fit any lower because of the curve of the bar.
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
ah well, found a picture today of a friend's Ami with the anti-roll bar installed how Citroen did it, albeit Tim's bar is sitting a bit high relative to the arms.

<
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30132857@N06/5158604339/sizes/o/in/photostream/
>

Note that with the arms on 'full droop' the bar will foul the gearbox mount, however with the vehicle resting on the ground and set at its correct ride height, there's no such problem as the bar will have rotated backwards and downwards... ;o)

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
Will it be ok spaced off 8mm?
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
it's a fairly tough chunk of metal, so a few millimetres out of its allotted position isn't going to hurt it.

Now I think of it, I've even seen some mounted upside down and doing what they're made to do quite happily... ;o)

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

A few more pics

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1

Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
probably doesn't make any difference now, but your gearbox mount is fitted back to front in the picture...

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
Now its not
Thanks
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi all
If anybody knows if the ECAS flexible cylinder head oil feed pipes will fit the visa 652 engine could they please let me know. I asked ecas but they replied < lets put it this way they are not for the visa engine> whatever that means
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
the Visa oil feed pipes are not the same as those on A series engines.
Instead of the feed emerging from the O/S/F of the crankcase and being attached with an M7 banjo bolt, the Visa pipes are fitted underneath the oil pressure switch, at the N/S/F of the cases and higher up.

I can have a closer look at the setup on a Visa engine, but that will have to wait until tomorrow.

Ken

Andy Stafford
Hi all
If anybody knows if the ECAS flexible cylinder head oil feed pipes will fit the visa 652 engine could they please let me know. I asked ecas but they replied < lets put it this way they are not for the visa engine> whatever that means
Andy

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Cheers Ken
When u get a mo if you could check it out I would appreciate it as that rigid pipe set up is ugly
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi Andy,
the lengths of the pipes are OK, however the problem lies with the diameter of the thread on the oil pressure switch.
That's 12mm, so the 2CV type flexible pipes won't work unless you were able to make up an adaptor, with an outlet at one side for the switch and one at the other side to accept the M7 banjo bolt for the pipes.

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Cheers Ken
I am actually fitting an oil pressure gauge and not the switch, As long as the hoses are long enough I should be able to sort it out
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
I take it originally the low oil pressure sender went thru the banjo bolt and into the crancase?
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
the oil pressure switch _is_ the bolt which fasten the oil banjo union to the crankcase, if that makes sense.

If you didn't receive those bits and pieces with the engine, I can take a picture tomorrow.

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Its ok Ken I have them
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi all
I have a bit of a problem in that my visa engine will not fit on the chassis. The front rail for the engine mounts is too close to the engine. I have come up with a solution and have posted the semi rectified pics on photobucket

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1


What I need to know is if there is any reason,ie a drveshaft problem or any other?, If I fitted the engine mounts lower than normal as i feel the lower C of G the better.
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
the small difference in offset of the drive shafts due to moving the engine & gearbox unit forwards a shade will be insignificant compared to the reduction in offset resulting from the lower ride height which I suspect you'll be using. ;o)

Ken

p.s.
If a spare front chassis crossmember would be of use, which could be galvanized before being bolted in place, maybe give me a call?

p.p.s.
The lower the front crossmember is sited on a chassis for a Lomax, the better the clearance for an air filter under the bonnet...

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
Thanks for the info, I have made the bracketry to lower the front cross member and move it forward and will post the usual pics on photobucket
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Pics of lowered repositioned engine mount bracketry on Photobucket

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi all
I was reading on Jerome cats website about using longer reaching spark plugs on the 652 visa engine,If anybody knows which would be the best plugs to use please let me know, The visa engine I am using has 9.5-1 pistons and the older higher lift cam with twin 1 1/4 Dellorto,s and a 123 electronic ignition
Thanks in advance
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Andy,
Jeroen did a lot of work with Visa engines so I cannot comment about the longer plugs idea, but I'd reckon that it's equally important to go at least one stage colder in the manufacturer's range of suitable plugs.

That's mostly because engines do run hotter on unleaded fuel than on the leaded variety, but also because of the lack of cowling on 'bare' engines.

The same reasoning applies to 602 engines, with NGK B7HS or B8HS being the plugs which I use, rather than the originally recommended B6HS OR BP6HS.

Ken

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ken
I read on Jeroen,s site that some of the visa heads were not machined deep enough for the plug to give good combustion, He reccomended having the plug threads deepened or longer plugs.
How do I tell if my heads have the plug hole machined in far enough, Good idea to use colder plugs
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi All
Has anybody got any pics/drawings of modified cylinder heads / pistons etc that actually work and give a bit more grunt?
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Ive had a pair of visa heads modified in the past its the taper seal spark plugs which are a little short but dont worry its not worth the effort

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi
It would appear a few people have had a problem accessing photobucket, If you copy and paste the below address into your web browser that should sort it.

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1

Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hi All
Has anybody got any information on lightening pistons?
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

It would appear nobody has lightened pistons?
Andy

Membership No. 1856

Re: 223 Rebuild

Hand up here,
but it was only to make sure that they were the same weight... ;o)

Ken

Andy Stafford
It would appear nobody has lightened pistons?
Andy

Membership No. 724

Re: 223 Rebuild

I have posted a few more pics on Photobucket

http://s1092.photobucket.com/home/AndyStafford1

I now have the body sat on the chassis but need to make the work area a bit wider and longer so the tool stations will have to go
Andy

Membership No. 1856

1 2 3 4