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HADES & PUNISHMENT

BDAG Lexicon seems to indicate that there was a concept among the ancient Greeks of having punishment in Hades:

" Vi. Pyth. 30, 179 ἐν ᾅδου κεῖσθαι τὴν κρίσιν; Hierocles 14, 451 τὰ ἐν ᾅδου κολαστήρια; Simplicius in Epict. p. 108, 14 punishments for sinners ἐν ᾅδου)." I think BDAG refers to an ancient chap named Simplicius (a neoplatonist) ho commented on more ancient philosopher Epictetus (who didn't even believe in Hades).

www.calameo.com/books/0001070448755628aa115 - Cached
1. "Zeus blasted the Titans with the lightning and from their ashes men were created. Thus they have a double nature; they are a com bination of the Titanic element which has its seat in the body, and the divine Dionysiac element, from which the soul takes its origin. The body is mortal and the soul eternal, that is without beginning and without end. The soul is im prisoned in the earthly body as a punishment for some trans gression committed during its divine existence. The body is not the instrument of the soul but rather its bonds, its prison, its tomb. For many thousands of years the soul must undergo new births alternating with periods of purgation in Hades and enter into a variety of plant, animals and hu man bodies." --
Eduard Zeller - Outlines of the history of Greek philosophy

Re: HADES / SHEOL / GEHENNA / LAKE OF FIRE

Well etymologized.
However, you must not disacknowledge Purgatory.
Your doctrine of Sola Scriptura supports it, what else is talked about at these:

"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." Matthew 5:26 (KJV)
EVERY SIN MUST BE ACCOUNTED FOR.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:32 (KJV)
SOME SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN IN ANOTHER PLACE THAN THIS WORLD IF IT IS SPECIFIED THAT CERTAIN ONES ARE NOT.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
WE ARE SAVED AFTER SUFFERING IN FIRE.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." Revelation 21:27 (KJV)
NOTHING WITH SO MUCH AS A SINGLE SIN ON ITS SOUL AT DEATH WILL BE ABLE TO ENTER HEAVEN.

You may disagree about the authenticity of the Books of Maccabess (which also support Purgatory), but several early Church Fathers acknowledged the books' religious standing as did the Jewish religion for some time (including the time of Christ).

Obviously, there existes a stage at which, because one cannot immediatley enter heaven, one is purified and forgiven of all of their sins through fire. It is this stage that the Catholic Church calls Purgatory.

Re: HADES / SHEOL / GEHENNA / LAKE OF FIRE

Greetings Arch,

Thanks for sharing with me your purgatory theories:

It should be noted that "Purgatory" does not occur in scripture, & none of the verses you posted mentions purgatory. So your argument seems to be that these passages require a purgatory, tho no such thing is ever mentioned in the Bible. BTW, you quote the KJV, which is not the best translation; tho I don't think it makes any difference; like most translations, IMO, they are excellent, but have mistakes. For proof texting I prefer the most literal scholarly translation I know of, the American Standard Version of 1901 (freely downloadable, public domain), even tho it keeps the old Elizabethan thees & thous.

Do I need to quote to you verses that prove that Christ paid for all our sins on the cross, a complete atonement, "IT IS FINISHED!" The Lord Jesus was & is both God & man. As man He entered the race of Adam & paid for the race's sins; as God He is infinite & in 3 hours could pay for all the sins of all mankind, that separation from God which is the wages of sin (death) "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."

" 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us ALL OUR TRESPASSES;" < Colossians 2

In the past, when the Christian trusted Christ as His savior, ALL HIS SINS WERE FORGIVEN! ALL INCLUDES PAST, PRESENT, & FUTURE!

"6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin." Rom 4

A person who trusts Christ as savior is a person to whom the Lord will NOT reckon sin.

"18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth over the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in lovingkindness. 19 He will again have compassion upon us; he will tread our iniquities under foot; and thou wilt cast ALL their sins into the depths of the sea." < Micah 7


"43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name EVERYONE WHO BELIEVETH on him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10

"3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" 1 Cor 15

"12 I write unto you, my little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake." 1 John 2

" 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; " Heb 1

"17 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

"26 For such a high priest became us, holy, guileless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this he did ONCE FOR ALL, when he offered up himself" HEB 7

ONCE FOR ALL: No idolatrous, monstrous re-sacrificing of himself in masses.


"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." Matthew 5:26 (KJV)
EVERY SIN MUST BE ACCOUNTED FOR."


Every sin was paid for on the cross by our precious Savior.

"25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into HELL. "

In context the punishment is Hell, not Purgatory. But 5:25 is speaking about this life & people going to earthy prison, not about eschatological punishment. 5:25 is not saying that if my human adversary has a disagreement with me, he can deliver me to a heavenly judge who will put me in purgatory. "Purgatory" does not occur in the verse.

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:32 (KJV)
SOME SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN IN ANOTHER PLACE THAN THIS WORLD IF IT IS SPECIFIED THAT CERTAIN ONES ARE NOT.


12:32 says absolutely nothing about anyone getting forgiven, but about NOT BEING FORGIVING; it covers both this world & the world to come. Purgatory is not mentioned. The logic is faulty if it be postulated that because one cannot buy passenger pigeons in the USA, one could buy them else where.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
WE ARE SAVED AFTER SUFFERING IN FIRE.


1 Cor 3 says not one word about anyone suffering in fire. The word "suffer" does not occur & also nobody is burnt in the passage. It speaks for WORKS being burned up (wood, hay, stubble) in judgment, so one gets no reward. Loss of reward is the issue, not punishment for sins, which were all paid for by Christ on the cross. This is an event at the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ, for Christians whose works are judged. The issue is reward or loss of reward; no punishment. Purgatory does not occur & not extended period of time is implied.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." Revelation 21:27 (KJV)
NOTHING WITH SO MUCH AS A SINGLE SIN ON ITS SOUL AT DEATH WILL BE ABLE TO ENTER HEAVEN.


This is the New Jerusalem, not Heaven; it is on earth at the time mentioned (see context). Yes, you are right, Those who trusted Christ as Savior & were born again will have no sin at this time. "He who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." That is, death brings cessation from sin. "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." When we have the beatific vision we shall be sinless, that beatific vision of Christ.

1 John 3: " 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God." I take that as a statement about the new nature that Christians receive when they trust Christ as Savior. When we die, our old nature is completely gone, we no longer have indwelling sin. Even now we have a new nature, which is realized in practice by "putting on Christ" (Rom 13)/

You may disagree about the authenticity of the Books of Maccabess (which also support Purgatory), but several early Church Fathers acknowledged the books' religious standing as did the Jewish religion for some time (including the time of Christ).

The NT never endorses Maccs. If you have some quotes from "church fathers" calling them the Word of God, I would appreciate your sharing it with me. And if you have some Jewish statements acknowledging the apocrypha as God's Word from the time of Christ, please post it. As I recall Josephus does not count them in his list.

You still fail to prove that the apoc is God's Word. Perhaps you can convince yourself by reading both the apoc & the Bible. See if you hear the voice of God in the apoc.

Obviously, there existes a stage at which, because one cannot immediatley enter heaven, one is purified and forgiven of all of their sins through fire. It is this stage that the Catholic Church calls Purgatory.

It is not obvious & the Bible never mentions purgatory nor endorses Maccs.

The Catholic Church does not call anything Purgatory. The Roman sect may so do.

What is obvious from reading the NT is that all our sins are paid for & forgiven by Christ by His atoning death. We receive this in effect the moment we trust Christ as Savior. And it evidences a lack of trust in Christ to not accept His atonement & to try to substitute our own atonement. He must be trusted as only & sufficient Savior.