Welcome!  You are at, which is the general forum for  Persons are invited to post on Bible and Theology (widely interpreted).  Some postings may be chosen to be reposted on  Give & receive love here. If you post here, please do not use "Anonymous" or the like. Choose your own screen names, but do not use one that you know is already being used by someone else. Please: 

1. You may debate with any ideas posted, but do not post objections to the topic, style, spelling, use of capital letters, or grammar of anyone's posting.  For example, you may debate whether the moon is made of green cheese, but kindly refrain from reviling a poster by telling him that it is politically incorrect to discuss green cheese.   

2. Do not post complaints or attacks vs. other posters.  

3. No obscene language,cuss words, or blasphemy may be used.   

4. Send complaints privately by e-mail to  If your posting is deleted, it could be because it violates forum rules or is just chosen for a short run on the forum.  

  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . If you want the password, register your screen names by e-mail, as password may be needed again if problems arise on the Forum. CHECK OUT THE search function, which is good: it checks the content of the postings.

Note that if you paste onto the Forum, for some reason Bravenet may change your quote marks and apostrophes into something else, like little boxes or funny U's.   Thanks for coming, participating, and for showing love .

Start a New Topic 
to iPETROS: Transformation; Justification by Faith, etc.


@IPetros (reminds me of "I, Robot" or "Me Tarzan, u Jane").
Good morning. I see you have posted a series of comments to me. Thanks.
Did you read all the evidence I posted Thursday night & Friday morning how that salvation is by grace through Faith, apart from works?

& I asked u where u wud go if u died today, didn't I? I'll look & see if u answered it.

I intend to repost is all here today.

At any rate, I wish you a blessed Saturday.

And if our life has been presented to God as a living sacrifice God's Holy fire will fall on us.
Like we read in Acts. God's Holy Spirit is His gift to those that obey Him.>>


"those that obey Him"

"Obey" or "are persuaded by"

The only obedience required is to obey the gospel; trust Christ as Savior. The Holy Spirit is not a reward some get for being obedient; He is the one who works in us to empower us to obey.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we trust Christ as Savior, and though we grieve Him & quench His power, He does not leave us. However, if we go on in sin we may expect chastizement.

As 1 Cor 12:13 indicates, WE ALL in the Body of Christ have been baptized into His Body by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The fire of God never fell on the alter.
It fell on the sacrifice.>>


@IPetros Excellent passage. Ur statement about fire on the sac & not on the altar gives food for thot. Do u have proof of that one? What is ur spiritual application? What comes to my mind is Isaiah 6 where there were hot coals on the altar & how the main altar was made using heat-resistant bronze.
Rom 12:1-2 has to do with Christians (brethren), not with how to get saved. & it is one of 2 passages which particularly concern the doctrine of transformation.

The other passage on transformation (which comes to mind) is 2 Cor 3:18 where it is beholding as in a mirror the Glory of the Lord which transforms the beholder from glory to glory (which I take to mean from Christ the source of glory to glory manifested in the Christian, beholding the glory of God in the mirror (figure for the Word of God).

μορφή (morphe) is the Greek word for "form," tho not mere outer form but evidently form of nature. Meta-morph-osis = trans-form-ation is an important doctrine, both for the lost man who needs a new nature via new birth & for the Christian who retains his "flesh," old Adamic nature as an alternative μορφή ever expressing its desires (the Spirit lusts vs the flesh & the flesh vs the Spirit - Gal 5). Paul said he was in travail until Christ were morphed in the Galatians. Christ appeared in a different morphe after the resurrection.

Do you think Jesus is worthy of your obedience. You don't have to answer that as people already know your answer by the way you live your life.
Only by Grace can this every be done, to lay my life down as a gift to the Son and to the one who stands among us as king I give up my life as an offering. That the Lamb may receive the reward for His suffering, that the Lamb may receive His reward through me.
Good song by Cindy Ruakere inspired by the Moravian.>>


It sounds like a good hymn. The question that I have concerning this issue is to whom you are applying this doctrine. I don't wish to try to refute a straw man either or talk past you. So I ask, not antagonistically, are you speaking about

1) what a Christian should do each day to effect in practice the transformation or do you speak about

2) what a child of Adam, unregenerate, never born-again should do to become saved?

The duty of obedience is incumbant upon all men at all times. But the unregenerate is unable to do God's will. Duties of obedience provide opportunities to disobey. Obedience is the joyful response of the Christian who wishes to please His God. Obedience (good works) is not a way to obtain regeneration, eternal life, or a ticket to Heaven.

If an unsaved man accepts the duty to obey & sets his will to obey God in order to establish his own righteousness, he is sinning & acting out of pride, even religious pride. If the unsaved man is honest, he will meet with moral frustration trying to be good. This frustration can drive Him to trust Christ as Savior. Or the unsaved man may play the hypocrite & claim how holy he is, when he is not.

We can't experience newness of life without dying first.
Unless a corn of wheat falls to the ground and dies it abibith alone. By if it dies it will bear much fruit.

We are called to deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Him.
And in Jesus day you knew one thing about a man carrying a cross out of the city, you new he wasn't coming back.>>

<<< Unless a corn of wheat falls to the ground and dies it abibith alone. By if it dies it will bear much fruit.
Many say there is room at the cross. But there is not room at the cross, there is room on it.
We are called to deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Him.
And in Jesus day you knew one thing about a man carrying a cross out of the city, you new he wasn't coming back>>

Again I ask if u are speaking about how to receive salvation or what to do after one is saved. Romans 6 tells us

"We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? 3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus [not into water] were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;"

The baptism of the Holy Spirit INTO CHRIST (not water) connects those who trust Christ as Savior, to the crucifixion. So we died when Christ died.

I must say I don't understand your quibble over "at" vs "on. You say, "Many say there is room at the cross. But there is not room at the cross, there is room on it."

Is this a quibble by you or are you onto something profound? I don't see the profundity. "At" is a more general word than "on." So if there were room ON, there would be room AT. The wonderful song, "There's room at the cross for you" I take as figurative. In other words, Christ paid for your sins on the cross & you are enjoy the benefits.

Christ did say to take up your cross & follow Him. But you cannot crucify yourself. Get out some nails & try it (mentally) -- think about it. There is very little chance that you will ever be crucified except by participation in Christ's crucifixion because the Lord put you there by incorporating you into His body.

I know by Grace we are saved through faith. But if a person truly gets save they will live a different life. If any man is in Christ he is a new creature, The old has gone and all things are made new.
They reason they live a different life is it is no longer them that lives but Christ that lives in them. For surly you know when you were baptized you were baptized into union with Christs death and just as He rose from the dead on the third day so to we might live a new life.>>

Yes, of course. I am glad that u affirm salavation by trusting Christ -- I assume you mean that He is the only & sufficient Savior, nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling. Yes, salvation is not by works, but must result in good works.

As to weather I am saved that is rely up to you to you to tell me.>>

That is one thing I cannot do. However, if you will answer 2 questions honestly to me I can get a very good idea.

1) Do you know that if you died today you would go to Heaven?

2) If yes, what is the basis of that confidence? What would you say if God asked you why He should let you into His Heaven?

If you avoid the questions, then that also gives me some idea of whether or not you are saved. Of course even if you answer them right, you (or I) might evidence lack of salvation by bad fruit.

< Jesus came as a human being (or in the flesh or in body depending on the bible you use)
Do you believe Jesus came as a human being?>>

If I have a doctrinal issue over one verse, I consult the original. There is only one Bible, tho I am thankful for many good translations. I believe the Trinity & the theanthropic union. The Lord Jesus is God-the-Son, who added a human nature to His divine nature about 2000 years ago. His human nature was complete, tho not infected with Sin (evident purpose of the virgin birth). He entered the race of Adam. He had a real body of flesh and a human spirit. The same body which was crucified was raised from the dead & had flesh. However, His human nature was transformed & elevated through the death & resurrection, a blue print for our transformation. But He still has body of flesh. The raised body is spiritual in that it is controlled by the Holy Spirit, not that it is made of spirit. He is the founder of a new race of men which consists of born-again offspring of Adam.

<<@Thunkful2 Look at what happens when you promise unrepentant people life in Ezekiel13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad,whom I have not made sad;and strengthened the hands of the wicked,that he should not return from his wicked way,by promising him life.>>

I don't think that Ezekiel 13 is speaking about eternal life, but life on earth in the present age. You speak of "unrepentant." Do you know what Biblical repentance is? Primarily metanoia (repentence) is a change of mind (meta + noia = change + mind). Biblical saving repentance is changing mind from its former attitude towards the attitude of trusting Christ as Savior. Bible repentance is not primarily sorrow for sin or vowing to turn over a new leaf.

False prophets are notorious for positive thinking. Yes, the wicked must not be told that God is going to let them into Heaven regardless of their sins. But what the wicked need is salvation from their sinful nature. Telling them to clean up their act so they will go to Heaven is also a lying promise.


I don't know this guy; thanks for telling me about him. Maybe I will check him out. The only One who ever could & did pay for our sins was Christ. I'm not going to blame America's sin on the Body of Christ. I think America would have been destroyed long ago except that like Lot in Sodom, we are the salt of the earth, a perservative.

What I was trying to address is how many today are into easy believism because they have been promised life.>>

It is easy; all one needs to do is to trust Christ as Savior, to cease from any pride of self-righteousness & rest in the Savior. But the sinful religionist wants validation, not salvation. He wants the Lord to approve of him, as if he were doing the Lord a favor to enter Heaven.


Repentence (metanoia) is not primarily "turning away from sins," but changing mind to trusting Christ. Of course in that change of mind one does turn away from sin, particularly the sin of self-righteousness, the sin of worshipping idols, the sin of placing confidence in one's good works, the sin of trusting anything else but Christ, or the sin of not trusting Him.


Christians do need to exercise: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful & just to forgive us our sins & to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But confession of sins is not the primary route to transformation. The Bible tells us that what transforms us is beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, also that the love of God constrains us. The focus is primarily on the Lord. After Isaiah saw God's glory (ch 6) he then repented & was cleansed. Thus I maintain that one needs to read the Word of God & focus on the glory of God therein & on the love of God for us therein.

Excessive focus on one's sin is unhealthy. The focus should be primarily on Christ. In many ways we all err as James tells us; & this won't stop until we die (He who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin). In the moral realm the focus must be on loving God and neighbor as self, not on establishing our own righteousness; all the moral precepts in human relations must be understood as aspects of loving neighbor as self.

I still wait for you to answer my questions about yourself:
If you died today, where would you go?
What is the basis of your confidence?

Best wishes,