I have been asked about a 130 workshop manual and was asked about the copyright if i get them reprinted,I know it is 41 years since it was first printed, what is the stance on this?

Membership Number: yes

Tricky one this.

I've been down the same route with Fiat UK and Italy and FIAT S.p.A - Centro Storico Fiat who I gather have inherited Copyrights etc. I pursued this for the publication of the old 1980s Fiat Strada Abarth Parts Slides/Microfiche on my Website.

I ultimately failed to get a Yes/No response from Fiat UK Legal, Italy or Centro Storico.

I did however keeps copies of all correspondence, Emails, contacts/people spoken to.

I also took independent advice from a Patent Attorney and came up with the following:

1) Clear set of terms and conditions of use/access to the material
2) Web only access via a login account
3) Clear statement that the info was provided in good faith, for no gain, etc. and is posted WITHOUT the disapproval of Fiat
4) Via 2) the ability to close down access and have a list of users should Fiat request the information is taken down via a "desist notice"
5) In my case the provision of the information is actually beneficial to Fiat as their dealers no longer have the data and thus have to contact Fiat Parts Technical for every enquiry an owner may make which is expensive for all involved.

More here: http://www.nick-bailey.co.uk/strada_abarth/ritmo_parts_intro.html

This is how I solved the problem, or at least mitigated any potential issues.

Important points are:

1)the information is "virtual" and not physical. Other people can break the T&Cs by bulk downloading and reproduction of the data but they would be infringing Copyright

2)I've over stamped all the slides with clear Fiat Copyright statements AND me as origin

3)Even if 2) was not done ALL images are ABSOLUTELY UNIQUE due to the image/slide scratches built up over the year so there is inbuilt traceability should any other web or printed sources appear taken from my site

4)Fiat were asked (UK & Italy), several times and took no interest

5)My action does not damage their business (actually a benefit) and also should Fiat want to pursue a claim against me they would have to explain why they took no interest and what loss I have caused them

Now I have every reason to believe that Fiat are being fair, want to support their legacy cars and owners so common sense prevails.

There is another interesting thing in that probably neither Fiat UK, Italy, etc. know who can grant permission for this old data and in my request I've asked a question that is not that easy to answer. Bit like asking a Policeman if you can park on a double yellow line for a good reason. They could say yes, only for you to get gonged by another or they could say "you won't be here when I come back!"

If you do some research on Copyright you will also find that Countries/States have different rules/time constraints on old publications that precede the International Copyright Laws circa 1970s. Since the 70s Copyright generally lasts for 70 years AFTER the death of the copyright holder(s).

Summary (my personal view point for which I accept, imply, warrant NO legal authority, liability etc., to be used at your own risk, etc. etc. etc.)

1) seek professional advice
2) ask Fiat UK / Italy / Centro Storico
3) document everything regarding 2)
4) go virtual with the ability to desist and remove access to material should you be requested
5) be prepared for a long period and several attempts at 2)
6) have clear T&C's that support Copyright Laws. e.g. no bulk/wholesale downloading of all the data/pages etc. In Copyright Law one is entitled for personal use to make a limited copy of parts of a work for personal reference use only
7) try and put some restrictions/control in place that stops bulk/wholesale downloading
8) ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF TO "CYA"

Finally I'm pretty sure I've spoken to at least ONE Fiat Motor Club GB official about asking Fiat if the FMC can (not me, not you) have permission to reproduce, serve, etc. Fiat Copyrighted old/legacy data. Were this the case then you, me, others as club members working officially for the club could do exactly what I have done and what you want to do. This would be a great club service offering that would hopefully not only benefit club members but also possibly attract new club members.

Nick /////

Membership Number: 4970

thanks for explaining this this minefield nick, asking fiat uk/Italy. i would expect a yes or no answer,or with conditions, people need answers, and looks like we are dragging our feet,

Membership Number: yes