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if I feel that your comments are derogatory or just plain idiotic, you will be banned from this site without warning. This is NOT why we have this forum and if the problems continue, the site will simply shut down.
I really don't want to do that since it can be a great source of information and a great venue to share ideas as long as they are positive.
Why aren't they wrestling any dual meets? Also, how did they go from barely fielding a team 3 years ago, to a state powerhouse this year, magically? I guess they just found the right kids from their school enrollment, right?
It’s because they have such a great feeder program. It’s called District 6! It’s only a matter of time though until they get caught.
I can tell you after being on both sides of the transfer situation it is really a tough one. On one side I can’t blame a parent for doing what they think is right for their kid. Then again if you transfer after 9th grade for athletics no matter what you should have to sit out by the PIAA rule which isn’t fairly applied to all cases.
It really stinks when a kid comes up through a program only to leave when they get to HS, especially at a small school. All the young kids in that program are missing out on looking up to those studs and what they possibly accomplishment in the future.
I also don’t blame the kids going to catholic schools if they do it before HS starts, I just think those schools should be competing in Prep states and Nationals big that is a bigger issue involving the legislature.
It all makes it hard to compete for the schools that are home grown. You just can’t compete with the catholic schools or a team like Southern Columbia with the amount of kids that have moved into that district, the number is probably in the 20’s at least. They are starting to make the football program look like Saints and their QB drives from Lewisburg to Southern for school every day!
My son Amonn goes to St Joes. Our reasons to send him to a private school were for his education, and to keep him in a small school environment. Yes he did wrestle for State High on the JR high team, for a great coach I might add, but he isn't a product of State College.
We lived in a very small town in WV, he would have been LOST in State High. We never had any intentions of him wrestling at State High. Coach Cummings is a great guy and I would have had zero issues with him coaching my son, but his education is more important to us.
I pay 100% full tuition for him to attend ST Joe's as well, so the accusations that they are getting scholarships is no where near accurate.
We do not do a lot of Duals because coach Flynn respects the kids that would get forfeits. So they do not have to make weight just to receive a forfeit. Tyrone and us matched up well where we did not forfeit to many.
Instead of asking why people are ending up at ST Joe's, maybe we should look into the school(s) that are having so many kids leave their programs?
If anyone would like to discuss my family's decisions, I welcome any comments or feel free to email me and we can talk. firstname.lastname@example.org
First off, no problem with your choice to send your kid to a private school. Plus it was done prior to HS so no PIAA involvement. No problem with eligible moves.
All I’m saying is teams can’t compete with schools who aren’t home grown or full of transfers. If your kid was one of the best kids to come through his old school that would stink for them. Maybe the old schools did have problems that attribute to kids leaving. Who knows.
I just don’t think schools like that are good for the sport as a whole but can’t blame the individuals making the choice to go there and potentially better themselves.
Couple questions, would you still have chosen St Joe’s if they had a below average wrestling team? Was State College Middle School also a lathe School or did your son not attend there?
Best of luck to your son this season.
I didn't take your original the wrong way.You have valid points.
Would we still have Chose St Joe's? We actually considered moving to Bald Eagle area, but decided on St Joes. Bellefonte was where we looked at first 4 years ago when we moved from WV, but we could find the right rental. My son did attend a State College M/S, but its no where near the size of Sate High.
To put it in perspective, WV school, 600 kids from the entire County in one regional H/S (7-12)
compared to 600+ in one grade at State.
Thanks for wishing him well.
Thanks for the reply. Just wondering, not that it’s really any ones business!
I love when people throw out getting a better education at a private school. But here's a cold hard fact... Teachers at private schools make a much lower salary than public school teachers. So you know who teaches at private schools? Teachers that can't get hired at public schools! Private schools boast that they have a higher graduation rate and better numbers heading to post graduate education facilities. There's no doubt this is true, but it's not because of the better education, it's because parents who can afford the tuition are more affluent families . Those kids would achieve in public or private schools. Saint Joe's is the flavor of the month. Nothing to sustain it long term. And what is happening there is flat out cheating and it's only a matter of time until they are caught. Sadly, the biggest lovers will he the kids wooed into going there when they don't have a place to compete or they are sent packing back to their "home" school and are shunned by teammates for leaving in the first place.
Mr Ohl, I commend you for putting your situation with your son out there and how you decided on St. Joes.
If you wouldn’t mind though, I have a question.
How do you explain the situations of a few of those kids at St. Joes that have siblings in other school districts? It’s not because of divorced parents either
I can’t answer that question for other families. I would not won’t to speak for them.
I can tell you about mine. My oldest daughter is a senior, wickedly smart, and is doing great at State High. She is a senior this year, and did not want to change schools again. For her, it works. My career has had my family move often.
My youngest goes to Grays Woods, she is hearing impaired , so she gets the help she needs there now. We will look at what’s best for her in the future.
We feel blessed that as a family, we have the choice to do what we feel as parents is best for our children. We moved to this area to give all of our children the best opportunity’s
I hope to meet some of you on this page, as we are still new to the area. I’ll be that crazy dad rooting for all the kids we have met since we moved! No matter what singlet they are wearing!!
Rick I've seen your son wrestle and he's quite good. I don't judge you for doing what you feel is best for your kids. However I strongly feel that when you can bring any athlete from the region to a "private school" without restrictions then the PIAA should require them all to compete together in the post season. I welcome the competition in the regular season but the post season is a different issue. Good luck to your son
Seems this is something the PIAA should address, but until then, these are the rules.
Thanks your for the reply.
Interesting topic and posts.
I have not seen St Joe's compete yet. But I have heard they have a really nice mix of quality kids (both on and off the mat) who are mostly from State College and Bellefonte. Based on the D6AA rankings, it sounds like they could have anywhere from 3 to 6 D6 champs; which is very impressive in a tournament that features 27 teams.
I'm curious too about their youth/feeder and/or junior high program. I did not realize that SJCA's enrollment had expanded enough to provide for a feeder system solely within their program. Maybe there's a different common link like a the NLWC or another club that helped bring them together.
State College area has OLV elementary/ Jr high
Bellefonte area has St Johns. Neither schools have a program, there are no wrestling rooms. Kids in those areas train ( usually) with their local
Youth programs or clubs in the area.
As far as ST Joes having a JR high team, it is the goal, but extremely hard without a wrestling room
Sent from my phone, so excuse any spelling errors
Thanks for the rapid response and good information. A number of comments and questions---
First, I am on the periphery of the issue (so don't really have a dog in the fight). But I am seeing and hearing plenty of tension and anxiety regarding SJCA from people affiliated with different public school programs (particularly in Centre and nearby counties). Again, doesn't matter to me; I'm a huge school choice advocate (although my own children always attended the public school district where we lived as my career moved us around a few times, too). I will say that I have heard both in coaching circles (and I'm not a coach) and media circles some very direct comparisons to SJCA's recent rise to some of the actions, issues, and allegations involving the program at State High (circe 1996-2005 timeframe). That is a little cause for concern. Given your arrival from outside the area, you may want to research that and ask around for some of the history, background, and ultimate consequences/results.
** One neat note (although you will have to confirm)---I mention this because of your earlier time in West Virginia. Penn State's reigning 157-pound NCAA champ lost one bout in his PA high school career (in the state tournament when he was a sophomore or junior). The kid who beat him had transferred to a PA Catholic School in D3 from, of all places, West Virginia.
Second--Interesting points about OLV and St John's in Bellefonte. In 1997, Bellefonte had a one year senior starter at 275 (heavyweight) who had attended St Johns from kindergarten through whatever the final grade was at that school. He wrestled for Bellefonte in junior high and was on the high school team but never wanted to wrestle off for a varsity spot in 10th or 11th grade (unusual but true). In his senior year, he went something like 31-3 on his way to a D6 runner up finish and then the NWAAA regional title. His dad told me several times back then that if a Catholic high school program existed in Centre County at that time, that is where he would have attended and the team for which he would have competed. Thus, I suspect that had SJCA been around decades ago, Bellefonte would have always played a key role in the school's student-athlete population.
Third, I looked at the rankings that someone posted for D6AA---- will SJCA compete in the D6AA duals this season? I know that the team has only competed in 6 dual meets thus far--- but when you look at the individual rankings (other post), it looks like SJCA has the lineup capability to put wrestlers on the mat in at least 10 of the weight classes (maybe more). And given the talent in the SJCA lineup, it seems to me that the Wolves would be favored to win 7 or more weight classes against any team in D6AA in a dual meet. If that happens, bonus points would make the difference and and your team would get plenty of them (another big chance to show that at the high caliber West Branch tournament very soon).
Everyone I have talked to in a fairly extensive D6 wrestling network who knows the SJCA kids speak very highly of the young men on the SJCA team; both as student-athletes, people, and future leaders.
I wish all D6 kids in both AA and AAA the best for the remainder of the season.
Interesting that you brought up West Branch. Tiny school. ALL homegrown wrestlers. Great coach. And they don't cheat.
Great program, yet they don't stand a chance against a school that recruits from feeder schools across the totality of district six, such as St. Joes.
I don't blame St Joe's by the way, I blame the PIAA. It is corrupt, and this is politics, without question, as to the reasons why these Catholic and Charter schools dominate the honest programs. There should be a SEPARATE DIVISION for schools like St Joes.
Want to recruit from feeder schools and take half of Bellefonte and BEA's teams? Fine. Go up against Wyoming Seminary, BECA, and the others in your own **** state championship...but allow the honest homegrown schools a freaking level playing field, or mat, in this case.
Excellent points and great comments comparing the Warriors to SJCA--- you are right, certainly looks a little like an uneven playing field to me. You can see strong and accurate analysis in several of Topper86's forum posts on the overall subject as well.
I know that SJCA has some outstanding kids and realize that they came from the public school feeder programs and/or local area clubs. That unfortunately happens across PA and your aim at the PIAA is on target (again see Topper86's comments on the inequity of transfer rules and timing of eligibility). However, I think the concerning issue to me is that I've now had a number of very knowledgeable and long-time Central PA wrestling people (contributors, coaches, award-winning sports media people) assert that SJCA's rise has some similarities with and even includes some of the same characters involved with the questionable State College program activities dating back not 15-20 years ago. You are right, WB would struggle to compete with that type of machine.
As for West Branch, great job by the community, school district, and Coach Bainey and staff and the youth and junior programs. I will one day in a few years be a resident of the WBASD---- so hopefully, in years to come, the Warriors will remain homegrown and strong. I'm always rooting for them.
Great topic here. This goes right along the lines of CM pulling kids from four different school districts and an entire county. Would like to see them against a group of Centre County all stars.
just as folks in clinton county were upset when howard high school and snow shoe high came together.
Read up there Sparky (aka D6fan)
A school district consolidating is a lot different than a private school poaching.
The athletes would still have to live within the district and would still have to follow the PIAA and District transfer rules. Private schools are not bound by this and the student athlete can go wherever they think the wind blows hot at the time. Transfer to a public school and you sit the year out - sometimes even if you did move.
CM competes in AAA because of its enrollment while St Joes gets to compete in AA because of its enrollment even though it can cast a wider net. The classification for private schools if they wish to compete in the public school forum should utilize the formula that co-oped schools use. If you pull from enrollment from Bellefonte, State College, Altoona etc - you use their enrollment numbers. Westmont was briefly bummed to AAA because of a coop with Ferndale even though their were only a few actual kids from Ferndale on the team.
While the idea of a powerhouse team may seem enticing for fans - it would decimate the small schools. Fielding complete teams now is a struggle. The box scores are full of forfeits and no matches as it is. Dual meets would fade or be boring affairs. An exciting dual meet is a great HS memory for these kids - a lot of which don't go to Hershey. That is what HS sports is about.
These programs don't grow the sport. They are parasites - that feed off the spoils of what the public schools elementary and middle school programs have built. And while clubs are great - exposure and accessibility for the "new kid" comes at the school level. The Private schools have no need to build anything if we stand back and allow them to pick off the carcasses of these programs.
The public schools need to ban together on this and protect what they've built. Parents need to have integrity and honesty as to their motives - if their kids do transfer - If its for religious or academic reasons, then surely you wont mind if little Dan Gable sits out his freshman or sophomore year, right?
The coaches and programs around D5 and D6 are top notch! No need to go anywhere! There's a lot of great coaches in those wrestling rooms. The bigger better deal seeking is not a life lesson we should be rewarding.
If you've been approached by a coach, booster or arm of a private school about transferring - for wrestling or any other sport or activity - you need to contact your local school district and D6.
Enough is enough.
Not Too, Sparky and D6 Fan:
I have looked at that chart several times since it was released. I'm not sure how it shows anything about CM other than that a small co-op adds on to CM's potential pool of wrestlers. Either way (with or without the co-op), CM falls well above the line and is more than 120 male students above the minimum AAA line. Where is the co-op from? Renovo?
Now for the record online---LOL X3 nice try with the comments about Snow Shoe and Howard combining (BTW-- those places are well inside Centre County). You forgot to mention Port Matilda in that consolidation that began in 1953 but did not result in the BEA High School being formed until the fall of 1956 (when Milesburg, Unionville, and Boggs Township were pulled from Bellefonte--- and you got the BEASD that exists today). That district is 100% contained in Centre County.
However, the KCSD (CM's enrollment) is not confined within the borders of a single county--- that was a huge oversight and injustice that occurred more than six decades ago. KCSD (LHHS, BEN, and now CM) really benefited from a bunch of student-athletes from Liberty and Curtin Townships (both in Centre County). Outside observers (many of them-- and especially public school educators from other states that use County-based school districts) cannot begin to understand how Liberty Twp, Curtin Twp, Marsh Creek, Blanchard, Hunter Run, Romola (and on and on) kids have been shipped across the Beech Creek Bridge into a neighboring county for the past 60 years to attend LH, BEN, or now CM in the KCSD. So, when you boys talk about combining Howard and Snow Shoe (really that is funny)--- please give a fair and balanced account and mention how your ancestors managed to take two townships from Howard's former (and what would have been and should have been BEA's present) by making that behind the scenes cross-county territory grab in the 1950's. Thanks and good luck to all D6 wrestlers for the remainder of the season.
Once again, outstanding analysis and and direct accurate comments. No comparison at all between poaching and consolidating. That is not even apples to oranges; more like apples to watermelons.
I was one of the people who was thrilled when your team moved to AAA for a brief cycle a few years ago due tot he Ferndale co-op. At that time, D6AAA was really in need of some quality and depth increases and your kids answered that above and beyond; and they did more than their share to make D6AAA respectable in the postseason tournaments all the way to the AAA state finals.
I'm thinking this thread topic (which started out as ST JOE's) will soon fade--- but I am going to launch another post in the next few days regarding questions and scenarios related to the future of D6AA (and maybe D5AA) after this season and look forward to your knowledge and response to that one.
Down here just south of the Beech Creek Bridge, we wish the Toppers a great post season. Keep posting.
StJoes is the same kind of cheating as
BECA has been for years. PIAA needs to make it
stop. Not fair to the public schools.
for the record relative to keystone central school district: it is not a county-wide district. it does extend into centre county for liberty and curtain townships and blanchard produced former penn state football captain/hall of fame coach bill bowes. keystone central does not include avis and a portion of pine creek township in clinton county; students there (and there have been many athletes over the years) attend jersey shore high school, 12 miles from lock haven. and sugar valley rural charter school fields a wrestling team with participants pulled from keystone central and the charter school also has students from the jersey shore and penns valley districts. and stewardson township, potter county, is part of keystone central. students there go to bucktail high school which has a co-op wrestling program with central mountain (in fact the bellefonte at central mountain dual meet later this month will be wrestled at the florey gym at bucktail to honor the several bucks who have started for the wildcats this season. the hearsay is they will wear the old bucktail red singlets that night.
Great info. Nice Try. hahaha
I don’t understand what your point is about KCSD.
It is the biggest school district in Pennsylvania in terms
of geographic size. School districts in PA are not
based on individual counties.
That has nothing to do with StJoes stealing wrestlers
from public schools...?
You are absolutely correct in those points you mentioned. And I have tremendous respect for CM.
But when your boy at the Record decided to pick on Snow Shoe and Howard, he launched a volley across the Beech Creek Bridge that absolutely had to be met with an immediate response; so I responded.
By sort of politely reminding him that in the views of many citizens south of the Beech Creek Bridge, those Liberty and Curtin kids that he mentioned were stolen from BEA dating back to 1953. he mentioned the great Bill Bowes who quarterbacked one of Malinak's unbeaten powerhouse Bobcat teams when he should have been taking snaps in Wingate had the lines been drawn correctly with Liberty and Curtin kids coming to Wingate and not shipped across the county line.
And you're right---nothing to do with SJCA "stealing wrestlers" per your reference. But, his post had to receive a response, so he got one. see you guys at Haywood's on the Green soon.
When I was a little kid, there were so many GREAT, GREAT wrestlers from EVERY public school in D6...both AA and AAA....
Just imagine this today: Instead of Jerry White of West Branch, Mark Dugan of Moshannon Valley, Mark Sidorick of Philipsburg Osceola, Steve Maurey of Altoona, Terry Williams of Bald Eagle Nittany, Gib Fink of Tyrone, Wayne Packer of BEA...
They might ALL be on the team at good ole St. Joe's.
Yep, I'm old, lol.
I have been told that the PIAA will do nothing in regard to recruiting, it is to be handled on the District level so if the school losing an athlete doesn't file a complaint the PIAA will not step in. We all know recruiting doesn't occur on the high school level in any sport regardless of gender!